Well, where to begin?
I don't want to waste time stating what is generally known, viz, that if child abuse exists in the world, it exists within our own 4 walls also. We are not, after all, a different species of humanity.
But we do boast a way of life that is designed to maintain holiness in the camp. If something unholy happens, it highlights a tension between our aspirations and our humanity. If we are all asked to live in a way that we cannot all live up to, the result is abuse.
Why should we be mind-blown by the fact that some charedim are gay? The Torah might forbid homosexuality, like it forbids a variaty of sexual associations, but the reality is that some people are gay. Hashem understands human weakness, hence for example the law of the woman captured in battle. How does that square with the law against intermarriage? Rather than have the battle-weary men sin with non-Israelite women, the law made it possible for them to have their cake and eat it.
So what if homosexuality is an "abomination"? Is abuse more acceptable to man or to Hashem? We need to make it possible for those in the community who are sexually challenged in this respect to find an outlet for the very human aspect of their lives without fear of shame and scandal. This will go a very long way to protecting children from unwanted attention.
Is this to condone sin? Yes. I personally feel that Hashem would rather people sinned as consenting adults than sinned against young children, (although I may be wrong).
So I would invite the Union to open a gay minyan, open to anyone who needs to catch a mincha, with a decorus mikva that gay/straight men can avail themselves of, and where everyone can shake hands and wish eachother gut shabbes with respect and maturity.
I dare say this blog will now be closed down by the frumkeit police. Another edict, another Gilui Daas. "Joe Blogs is unfit to serve as a blogger in any capacity, and whoever logs on to Speakerscornernw11 is not to be given an aliya".
Like I am very afraid. (I fear Hashem ever so much more).
you make very valid points, even though the truth is pretty unpalatable.
ReplyDeleteWe are witnessing a complete breakdown of the norms and values of Charedi society, it is sick and broken and has perpetuated a huge lie and falsehood over a captive audience since the end of the second world war.
Our leaders are wholly to blame, some more than others, but in general those of the more extreme variety i.e. the corrupt SH based UOHC led by some seriously wicked people.
I am talking as a shtreimel bedecked member of aforementioned extremist enclave.
There is a whole section of society that is forgotten and their needs totally disregarded, they dont even have an online forum. It is as though their unfortunate status is simply not recognised and their existence is irrelevant and their needs are not met, since there is simply no framework or guidance to cater for these people within terms of charedi society or even halocho per se.
I am talking about singles especially those that have emerged from broken marriages. Where do they go for their human needs? What are they to do? frequent dens of iniquity? I have just put this out there since you mention the plight of gays. These are regular people who have no way of halachically having their needs seen to, what on earth are they meant to do?
I love your comment about being turned on by the Amshinover!
ReplyDeleteIf I were to post my pic I reckon you may start getting hot too! Though I wouldnt want to be machshil a married woman! I do fear G-d, (or my understanding of the concept)
Methinks you have overstepped the mark. These blogs it seems cannot be stopped. But we have to extremely careful in what we read and what we write. Totally disagree with you Ma'am. Power to publish does not give reshus to go against everything the Rabbonim state.
ReplyDeleteThe Rabbonim are only human too! Why are you giving them so much power over our lives??
Delete(Gay gezunte heit) says: SH Lost Hope, I am a shtreimel bedecked
ReplyDeleteman living in SH, married with 5 children and I have a boyfriend. My wife needs some attention these days. You would not be machshil, you would be moshiach. And I am not the only one round here. I met my boyfriend (age 33) at shiel.
Emess seeker thinks I have overstepped the mark. The "abusers" haven't - the people trying to correct the actual problems have! Wonderful! This is why we have these problems, sir: because we prefer to sweep everything under the carpet. The rabbonim have spoken so we must all keep quiet and (carry on abusing our kids).
ReplyDeleteNot at all, I am completely against abusers, they are the lowest. A test of a proper Community is if it cares for the vulnerable of its society. We must be courageous against abusers, even if they are in rabbinic garb, or in any other garb. We should not sweep everything under the carpet at all. But not to go too far! Not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not to trample on everything holy. Not to get rid of all the Rabbonim, and all the Traditions. Not to introduce gay minyonim either, if that is not the decision of the erlich rabbonim. And not to trample on every last item of Yiddishkeit either.
ReplyDeleteThis is SH Lost Hope (the form won't load on iPhone )
ReplyDelete@emess seeker
I agree with you to a certain extent and I find anonymous's comment disgraceful . However the very fact that those comments were raised highlights the predicament I raised.
SH Lost Hope again
Delete@anonymous
If you care for your wife (you obviously have no feelings for your kids) you should divorce her and move in with your BF
If your poor wife has a get kehalacha and it was appropriate then you can introduce her to me
I suspect you just want to have your cake and eat it
I suspect he can't divorce his wife and move in with his BF because it would cause a huge scandal. Can you imagine? Local chevrah would be throwing eggs at the front door of the sinful couple, they would get -100% acceptance. He can't live as himself in a frum community, because whilst Hashem might understand him, the rabbonim don't. Why are you talking about his poor wife?? Poor both of them! Probably pushed into the marriage for the sake of his family, the mitzvah and to avoid being regarded as gay. What a pathetic shame.
DeleteRealistically what do you suggest can be done?
ReplyDeletethis is not about exposing abuse this is something that needs adressing but within realms of Halacha...dont you agree?
Should i be taking up his offer of satisfying his wife in your honest opinion?
I do want to conduct my life within Halocho, but am saying we need recognition as a group and needs must be adressed.
I agree that something needs adressing with respect to this familys plight, but surely you are not suggesting we abandon Hashems torah?
"but surely you are not suggesting we abandon Hashems torah?":
DeleteHeard this line about agunah also - "the hands of the rabbonim are tied". "The Torah says...."
The torah doesn't say anything about those conditions and situations when things go wrong. It has us all living up to an ideal. Beautiful when it works. Outrageous when the rabbis hold everyone to it regardless of the human circumstances. Leads to so many sad lives and chillul Hashem and it doesn't have to be this way if we had thinking rabbis.
All we've got are halachists and traditionalists who won't think outside the the daled amos of yesteryear's rabbinic thinking. Its like the joke about how many rabbis does it take to change a light-bulb? (Ans: "Change"? What's that?)
Joe Blogs has hit a nerve alright. The gay minyan might be pushing the boat out but that was a joke man!!!
After some thought Ms JB,
ReplyDeleteI come to the conclusion there is no realistic solution to above mentioned issues. That is not to say that we do nothing. we need root and branch reform. Firstly we need to identify what got us into this situation, it appears that a bunch of corrupt fundamentalists have succeeded in monopolising Torah true Judaism and use the Torah to commit their excesses enforce their agenda, cover up THEIR abuse (as opposed to ordinary Joe Bloggs who has to tow the party, torah, halacha, or whatever you call it!).
What to do about it?
We need to be very careful not to discard all that is good and holy with Torah true life. HOWEVER we must identify the sheker and expose it for what it is. We need true leaders, or even one accepted leader, or at least an elected group of trustworthy G-d fearing people to administer this revolution.
Trust is key here, so anyone with a particular agenda need not apply for the position.
One of the great injustices of UOHC is in regards to the Kashrus racket. I speak as a Kashrus professional with many years of experience. It is not rocket science to set up a trustworthy kashrus organisation that caters to all with the only focus being to provide a service to the community. In fact such an organisation does exist though Kedassia (read Ke-mafia) have consistently tried to malign them.
A forum must be established where all vulnerable people or children can turn to.
The new leaders must address these issues openly and honestly as a matter of urgency, or else, We are doomed to extinction in a very short space of time!
The only people to gain from this are the current abusers, fundamentalists and radicals.
Pinni
ReplyDeleteRubbish!
Teshuva Seforim are absolutely full of heter agunos, it does need brilliant and dedicated Rabonim to deal with this and excuses are derisory, however the nature of any law is that there are boundaries, and we who believe in the Divine status of Halocho are bound to work within the parameters of Halocho.
What you are espousing is reform, and if you wish to go that way its your choice, I dont think that Ms JB is suggesting this ....I may be mistaken?
The point our blogger is making and I really do agree with her is;
ReplyDeleteif there is a choice of commiting an abomination or abusing children which one do you choose!
Every time the choice is simple, an aveiroh bein odom lemokoim however serious, lets leave it to Hashem to deal with, whereas uprooting disgusting paedophilia and other sources of sexual abuse is OUR responsibility, and the Rabonim who have brushed this aside and condemned the victims are the worst form of evil themselves!
This is not about reforming halocho.
This is my take on this blog
SH Lost Hope:
ReplyDeleteMs.Blogs wishes to thank you for your support. Of course I am not advocating Reform; only reform! I don't think "Pinni" meant to sound like a Reform yid either although I won't speak for him.
The point is that when we lived in pre-golus times, social dysfunction was not on a par with life in Western Europe a couple of thousand years later. Thus we no longer have, for example, the "ben sorrer u'moreh" - we have the Clubhouse. We have marriage guidance counsellors and drug support lines. Today we don't have young ladies going out to dance on tu b'av, but we have heaps of mechitzahs and prohibitions against the sexes even seeing eachother in the street. And through all these social adaptations, we are still using the yardstick set out in the Torah for very different social conditions, with no leeway for our reality. "Lo bashomayim he"! If we can't live with it 100% why do we think Hashem won't accept 98% in all the circumstances?? Is He so unreasonable??? I very much doubt it.
Ms J Bloggs
ReplyDeleteI second the motion!
This is a watershed moment, but also dangerous and somewhat precarious for Anglo Jewry. The backlash from the C4 Dispatches programme will be horrific, and in my humble opinion, REP will actually come out as being misrepresented and entrapped, even taken out of context in a biased report.
It may help to scupper the CH kangaroo BD since no one will buy that BS, and they will all be too busy in damage limitation.
IMHO we will see a dramatic rise in violent anti semitism and we will all suffer.
Regarding molesting subject of the day.
ReplyDelete1 For a start REP does not have a real shul (only on shabbos) of which he is rov, therefore he is not the correct person to approach.
2 Every shul has a rov or rich person in charge of it who can do something about it.
3 Not in every shul does molesting go on in SH only in certain chasidic larger ones.
4 The problem is when the rich person's son or grandson or family does the molesting. What should the rov do. The rich person 'leans' on him stop the abused going to the police.
It is not really REP who should be carrying the can but many other rabbonim in SH mainly the 21 who signed for RCH. Now one sees the connection. They are the ones who 'help' the molesters and also 'help' RCH.
It is not against the Torah to go to the police. Some of them have to be locked up for the communities good. REP is wrong that their lives come first or that their blood is redder.
I hestitate to say it, but I seem to have 2 loyal followers. My husband will be intrigued that anyone is listening!
ReplyDeleteThere is just really one issue going on, with two examples of it. The CH matter and the abuse story are only examples. The actual issue is HOW WE LIVE AS A COMMUNITY. If we address this, we will be dealing with virtually everything that is amiss in the charedi kehilla. Most of our fences around other fences have arisen as an anti-dote to external influences, Reform, Masorti, and the wider world in general. They are not fences which were ever part of tradition. They are seriously unhealthy in the long term; and Yiddishkeit does not need these stringencies to stay afloat. They are an insult to yiddishkeit if we need to go to such lengths to keep to the derech.
We are causing our own emotional problems.
This is my main gripe against the rabbonim - they are reactionary rather than genuine leaders.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteMay I ask do you question all Rabonim the same way or is your main Criticism directed at so called Heimishe Rabonim but find the US Rabonim more amenable?
ReplyDeleteIn my experience there are very few Rabonim alive today anywhere that do not seem to have some sort of agenda, whether that is party political or communally biased in some respect.
Honestly I despair, unless we strike out on our own!
By the way I posted your blog address on Tickle with a short intro. Will see if it gets posted, some of my comments do not get approved, have no idea why.....honestly
ReplyDeletewas accepted
ReplyDeleteSaw your post on Tickle. Am very grateful. (I have deleted the request now!)
DeleteI don't question all rabbonim - only the ones who won't think outside the daled amos of charedi life as we know it. This just happens to be all charedi rabbonim, because that is what charedi-ism is all about: ultra-reactionary yiddishkeit.
We have gotten into this mess through our listening to the rabbonim without ever challenging them. A rov says 'boys must not walk on the same side of the road as girls', and we all just do it! Suddenly we need a house with 2 entrances (m+f). Why do we give them this power? Are frum men so sick that any woman who comes within 2 feet of them is a major challenge? You need mehadrin buses??? How on earth did our forebears live in the shtot? What most of SH needs (not only SH)is a bit of female in-put in daily life. That would at least be a bit natural (for most people).
The current way of life is only sustainable at a huge price - emotional problems in place of kedusha.
And the only way it will change is through people power. So we are all blogging our lungs out...
I am out of UK at the moment could you post a link where could watch this programme?
ReplyDeleteHaving watched the channel 4 program available on failed moshiach. I happen to know the boy involved. He is a member of lubavich. His BIL works for kedassia. I believe the other so called anonymous rabbi is also a member of lubavich. His parents have lived off the SH community. Lubavich have their own rabbis (dead and alive) and there is no reason to drag REP or Westheim into their failed schools. He is not the only drop out, there are many more from there boys and girls.
ReplyDeletehe is far from Lubavitch, and religion for that matter.you clearly do not know him. stop spreading lies. i would strongly suggest that you remove your comment as the information is incorrect. this has nothing got to do with lubavitch, evidently you have something against them. so go sort it out with them and don't involve mr c in it.
DeleteThis article was written by a friend of mine.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.jewlicious.com/2013/01/tohuwabohu
The author is actually not Jewish but very sensitive to our culture.
Where is our esteemed Rebitzen Ms Joe Bloggs?
ReplyDelete(Mind-bloggles) says:
DeleteOh dear. I have just seen Rebbetzen Blog's new post. SH Lost Hope, I think you might have to seek guidance from your Rov...
Yep Anon!
ReplyDeleteI did and found him blogging as usual!