It appears that some gentlemen find this blog disrespectful to rabbonim and to aspects of charedi life generally. So while there many be thousands of people reading it and even agreeing with it, there is a reluctance to publically acknowledge it.
Well guess what! I find the attitudes of charedi men towards women highly flattering.
I find rabbinic thinking throughout the ages on a whole host of related issues totally acceptable and unpatronising, and I find the majority of charedim only too ready to stand up for what they know to be fundamentally right even if this goes against the rabbinic grain.
So if the tone of this blog offends you (or your rabbi) it is probably because you find it permissable to condemn some forms of sexual abuse, but not others.
You most likely have the correct figures. Are there really thousands of people reading your blog?
ReplyDeletePurim's come early this year?
ReplyDeletenormally, its Mincha at 3pm on Purim where you see those who are stoned outside Harger's
Hilarious!
ReplyDeleteI didn't expect a serious debate; and I sure ain't been disappointed yet.
Some people choose to rant against sexual abuse in the community, oblivious to the fact that treating women purely as sex objects (as Jewish law does) is itself abusive and offensive. Anyway, carry on with the jokes - they're very good...
If you want a serious debate, create an anonymous email address and email me at azoizogtmen at gmail dot com. For reasons which cannot be explained here I do not wish to discuss this on a public forum at present.
DeleteThe staggering thing is that no-one has said (on this occasion) that I don't "understand the community"; no-one has disagreed with me; and no-one has tried to explain why I might be wrong.
ReplyDeleteYet the same old abuse of women, which we take as perfectly normal in our community (even the women do!), will probably still be with us in 100 years. How to understand that??
Are we so blinkered? Or are we just afraid to look at the reality in case it leads, chas vesholom, to change?
Drai-kop
ReplyDeleteI have always said you dont understand the community. Tell us exactly why you consider women are abused according to rabbinic thinking.
BTW Manchester is making an eruv where all the rabbonim there agreed, even RCH FIL. Of course some dumb chasidim caused a great chillul hashem by opposing it in the council. But it is now going ahead. For your reference, of how many people live there. Unlike London a maximum of a million people and those ever entering the Jewish 'ghetto' maximum ' 50,000'. The united Old Trafford ground which seats 70000 is nowhere near there. There is no Shopping Centre like Brent Cross in the area so no real reason why people should have to go there. There are a few 'natural' boundaries like the River Irwell and train lines. But they still need to erect many 'poles'.
In my view, women are abused by being regarded purely as sex objects with no further abilities or rights. Hence the agunah farce (which would have been sorted centuries ago had the shoe been on the other foot and men could only have one wife); they are air-brushed out of pictures for no other reason; they are regarded as unsuitable for any public office and for all sorts of things that contravene their human rights; and the laws of tznius seem to permit men various liberties in their own dress which (men) have banned for women (eg sleeves above the elbow). This is all the result of male power and abuse of that power at the expense of women.
ReplyDeleteSo tell me why on earth many charedim think sexual abuse of women is "shameful"?? Charedi life - ie the life they themselves lead - depends on it and endorses it, for goodness sake! Only because we refer to these laws as "halocho" instead of "abuse", we don't see them for what it really are Good morning!
Drai-kop
ReplyDeleteWell women were created as an afterthought when Adam couldnt manage without one.
Their whole purpose is to be a helpmate. They dont have their own 'tachlis'. That is why they dont have to learn and if they do they dont merit any reward for it.
I dont have to explain to you why men can have more than one wife and not the reverse. Otherwise one would never know who the father is. The pictures is not a halachic thing same with the sleeves. In which public office are they considered unsuitable. Deborah was a prophet and a judge. What other human rights are being contravened.
Women "don't have their own 'tachlis'"? Where does that gem come from? Just because some woman tells you she's done a bit of learning in Sem, doesn't mean she's an authority on these things. You should only listen to a man when it comes to determining the tachlis of a woman. Women can talk about laundry. About brainwashing they know from herring.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Devorah lived quite a long time ago. How come you can't find someone more recent than her to prove your point? Has there been a shortage of women?
Finally, why does the Jewish press air-brush out pictures of women? Is it because women are regarded as sex objects, which is abusive, or is there some higher reason??
Drai-kop
ReplyDeleteAs I keep on saying you dont understand the Jewish community and that includes me.
Since you ask for Jewish women, here is another one nearer to our times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiden_of_Ludmir
I dont suppose you have heard of her.
In Parshas Toldos we read about Yitzchok and Rivka "jesting" (that is the translation used by Art Scroll). The meaning is clear to everyone. Today, instead we get edicts from the Rabbonim about how women must walk some distance behind their husbands. How can any right-thinking person reconcile these two completely disparate attitudes.
ReplyDeleteAnd note how it is always the men that insist on women moving places on buses and planes, G-d forbid that the men should move. Men treat women as little more than chattels, unable to stand up for themselves in court as they will be humiliated and denounced as possul eidus.
Please tell me, what is the male equivalent of Sotah and why is a man allowed to remarry without giving his wife a get is he obtains a heter meah rabbonim
@ Anonymous 03.21
ReplyDelete'I dont have to explain to you why men can have more than one wife and not the reverse. Otherwise one would never know who the father is.'
No rabbi has ever heard of DNA test, I suppose? That surely would give a good indication nowadays of who is / who is not the father. Being allowed to have more than wife, even though it is a very rare practice nowadays even among Sephardim, does suggest that a woman is deemed highly replaceable, or additional, should the man so desire. This demeaning attitude of rabbis and their followers towards women (and enmeshed in the over-strict modesty rules) still abounds today.
Drai-kop
DeleteThere are other reasons why more than one woman is not just desirable but necessary. And not because of a 'demeaning' attitude. We cant 'change' laws because of modern 'developments'. There are also other reasons why a woman can only have one husband, like why hashem made her a virgin. There was a purpose in that which you seem to be unaware of. The male equivalent of Sotah is not necessary because if she dies so does he at the same time. So only one has to do the 'drinking', not that he gets off scot free as you seem to presume.
Tickle is either keeping shabbos early or Purim early and is already shikkur. No wonder since he sees AD.DLO.YODA all the time. Her raving and ranting, never mind her rambling would make anyone drunk.
The whole thrust of these arguments demonstrates that there are double standards here. If virginity is so important, why weren't men similarly afflicted. If a man involved in Sotah is to die, why isn't he publicly humiliated as well. And why is only a man entitled to take a woman as a concubine as described in Ki Tzetzeh.
DeleteA friend recently described how on a return journey from Israel, a chareidi man was seen to bully a pregant woman to move elsewhere so that he would not become "defiled". How sick is that?
The sooner that men stop making excuses and realize that there are double standards in the treatment of women, the better. And let me tell you that things have got much worse over the last 50 or so years.
Darling Drai-Kop, you really are priceless. It is too sad that you are not a woman, for your price could be (in the region of) rubies. Or do I mean rupees/rubles??
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile a bit of sunshine seems to have brought people out of the shtibel and into the open airing of opinions. I always knew I had some followers from Bobov, but I didn't realise it was you, Lauren. Do you have a tv then?? And I suppose you've got more than one kitchen, and more than one rov as-well. AND I bet you are just a woman (at the end of the day). And I expect you get to sit where you like on the Mehadrin buses, and next to whoever pleases you on EL-AL, (oh, its you FLYING THE PLANE!) and to wear your sleeves rolled up if it makes you feel more comfortable. Is it any wonder you are posul le'eidus, woman? (By the way, thanks for advising Mr. Blogs about the inheritance tax avoidance schemes. Not really relevant to the discussion but just thought I'd mention it).
Does anyone know why a kallah is referred to a 'besulah' prior to her wedding, while the choson is 'habochur, hamuflag'? This seems to keep the man's past secret, but the woman's (assumed) past a matter for public attention and interest.
ReplyDeleteThis is because her status as a besulah is crucial to establishing that she is not already "taken". If anyone has already slept with her, that person is already her husband so halachically she cannot now be getting married (without a get).
ReplyDeleteThis doesn't apply to the man. He can have more than one wife so his sexual history is irrelevant.
Drai-kop
ReplyDeleteI can see that the posters here also know very little of Judaism. The reason she is called a 'virgin' is because her kesuba is less if she isnt. If you would know the real reason why girls were born virgins you would realise why it doesnt apply to men.
http://chaimhalpernconspiracy.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/court-orders-google-to-identify-anti.html#comment-form
Tickle has now been 'outed' there, what everyone in SH already knew and mentioned often on FM. That maybe the reason he has closed shop. I could have told RCH for a lot cheaper than what his high court costed him.
Mrs Blogs how much would you charge for telling us who you are. Or are you waiting for RCH to take you court.
In ki setsei its not a concubine but a wife. Where do you all get these ideas from.
If everyone already knew Tickle's ID then it makes the actions in the high court all the more indefensible. It just makes an ongoing chilul hashem all the worse. Secondly, when there is so much hardship in the community to throw more at already well-paid lawyers is shameful. Surely it is more important to put food on the table of struggling families
ReplyDeleteDrai-kop, do me a favour and tell me why a kesubah is "less" if the kalloh is not a besulah, and why girls are born virgins. You can put it in Hebrew if you like, but not Yiddish because I wasn't brought up with it. Why doesn't it apply to men?
ReplyDeleteIf you answer these questions, I will see to it that Mrs.Blogs reveals her identity to you.
Drai-kop
ReplyDeleteHow can you be sure she will reveal her identity. Are you Mrs Blogs now calling yourself Mrs Smith. What will you call yourself next.
The reason a kesuba is less is because she is 'worth' more if she is 'unsoiled' and ask any man and he will tell you other reasons.
The reasons girls are born virgins is if you read my previous post that women were made as an afterthought because Adam couldnt manage without one. To make sure she stays loyal to him she is born a virgin. אין האשה כורת ברית רק למי שעשאה כלי. I hope my Hebrew is good enough for you.
Anonymous is fun.... or not?
ReplyDeleteOh for Heaven's sake! You know exactly I am so just stop messing around and let's get back to the real issue: Is the rabbinic attitude to women an abusive and cheapening mentality that needs to be cast aside in favour of something more respectful of female individuality - yes/no.
ReplyDeleteMr. Blogs, keep out of it. On this occasion only, I wasn't talking to you.... And I believe I have revealed myself to you already, some years ago.
Is the traditional ultra orthodox/ chasidish/ yeshivish /Rabbinic attitude the one you question or even the MO US type LBD Rabonim attitude?
ReplyDeleteI am not a woman so I cannot honestly answer the question. However, the question is unfair since is loaded I would suggest that Womens attitude to men also needs some reform or at least clarification.
to be continued after Shabos!
By the way I am only too happy to sit next to a woman on ELAL or any other flight or situation for that matter. I find the women tend to avoid sitting next to men. Am just a confused (sexually) frustrated man ... I supose
"To make sure she stays loyal to him she is born a virgin" If ever there was a piece of misogynistic nonsense this is it. By definition a woman can't be a virgin and disloyal (in the physical sense). It can only be after the first act of intercourse has occurred that she can be disloyal.
ReplyDeleteLikewise it is patently nonsensical to say that women were made as "an afterthought". In the first place are you saying that when HKBH made the world he overlooked the need for women and it was only when man was lonely that he made woman. If everything was so perfectly planned, how was mankind supposed to perpetuate itself.
Or as many women - and some men - are fond of saying, when G-d made man he was only practicing.
Drai-kop
ReplyDeleteTo anon 8'.52
Apparently you didnt understand the Hebrew I wrote. And something you dont understand is automatically nonsensical. Therefore your definition is wrong.
If you read Genesis you will see that woman were created as an afterthought. How the world would have been otherwise, if Adam would have been able to manage without I cant tell you.
It is not I am who am saying this but the Torah. There were be other ways of understanding it but that to me is the simple explanation.
Please don't be so rude and arrogant as to assume that you are the only person here who understands Hebrew - even if you do make the odd typo.
DeleteAS to the "simple" explanation - that is precisely what it is, for someone who is incapable of doing more than accepting things at face value.
Lets face it, however much you might try and justify it, women are treated as second class in every way. Even if one accepts, for example, your use of the word "wife" in the ki tzetzeh example, the woman who is captured in war has no say in the matter. She is merely a devide for satisfying a man's "desire". Do you honestly think that a woman acquired under these circumstances, and that is all she is, an acquisition to satisfy a man's lusts, would be considered a wife with the same status as a Jewish woman. Please don't be so naive.
One can list, as others have done in this thread, countless examples of women having an inferior position to men. You are trying to defend the indefensible. If Isaac and Rebecca were seen to be behaving today as they did a few millenia ago, the consequences don't bear thinking about. The sad fact is that the anti-women tendency has got even more extreme over the last century - trying to out-Puritan the Puritans
Drai-kop
DeleteRude and arrogant is calling everything you dont understand nonsense. As though only you are capable of understanding anything and if it is beyond you, like most things seem to be, it must be nonsense. YOU didnt understand the hebrew I wrote, so dont try to excuse your ignorance by saying its nonsense. Rather admit to your many failings.
Since you being a woman find this difficult, that is one of the reasons why you are inferior.
Your story of 'Isaac and Rebecca' is also not the same as rashi understood it, and it wasnt done in public as you seem to infer.
Oh dear - how sad. You can't even begin answer the main point under discussion here, namely that women are treated as little more than chattels.
DeleteIsaac and rebecca were seen, that is obvious from every commentary.
Oh and by the way, the rest of your nonsense collapses because I am most definitely not a woman. Drai kop indeed!
SH Lost Hope,
ReplyDeleteYou need a wife. A woman. Anything. You are exactly where Adam was before Hashem provided him with Chava, according to Drai-Kop, and its not as if there is only one woman to choose! Perhaps tell us something about yourself and your circumstances, and all the readers of your post will help you find your other half. Be brave -you have nothing to lose but your...
MRS BLoggs very perceptive of you and most kind. Do you not think I try all the usual channels. I would gladly share my story with named individuals but it would be a huge leap of faith and possibly damaging to my already precarious existence to reveal myself and my story on an anonymous blog, somehow not sure that would present me in way to attract a future spouse.
ReplyDeleteI possibly dont have much to lose, except for a little self respect.
If you would give me an email address I would be happy to share with you and would be most grateful to anyone who helps in this regard.
I was married and BH raised a family, unfortunately marriage broke up very acrimonious situation developed, though now things have settled. The now infamous Bridge Lane therapist played a big role in persecuting me without once exchanging any words or contact whatsoever. He undermined the trust that certain female member of my family had in him and she went on to persecute me on his orders (something to do with the treifene internet!!!!!)
Whatever the case with the allegations against the said practioner I for one see poetic justice in his downfall.
By the way I tried posting something negative about CH on
ReplyDeletehttp://chaimhalpernconspiracy.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/court-orders-google-to-identify-anti.html#comment-form
surprise surprise...... yes you guessed it was not accepted! it is said that this Mathew fellow (seems to be blog moderator) is no less than Porky himself!
Drai-kop
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thejewishweek.com/editorial-opinion/opinion/heritage-all-israel
Another 'great' woman for you. Are you still short?