Thursday 7 February 2013

The Tcherionthetopover says...

   Let us assume that a certain chasidishe rov is found guilty as charged.  Then what?  He has already surrendered his public offices, and his own home is untouchable by the communal authorities.  He cannot be imprisoned by any beis din, nor can he be given community service, nor can he be ordered to step down as the rov of his own kehilla.  He cannot be ordered to leave town, however desirable this may or may not be, and although he could be placed under a cherem, no-one would be obliged to adhere to it. 
   The question of compensation could possibly arise, although it didn't need a special beis din from abroad - at ludicrous expense - to pronounce on this aspect or to determine amounts, and he could be stripped of the title "rov", which also doesn't require a Sanhedrin.  All in all then, blogging about this particular subject is bitul zman.  The real issues of the day are being side-lined by this sordid saga.
   Punters down at the Slap & Tickle have been reduced to describing themselves as "machmir" on various issues, such as the GG eruv.  They are not undermining the LBD, they are just "being machmir". 
   This is not true.  Various rabbonim from the UOHC actually declared that the eruv was ossur, must not be used.  DCE had already paskened that it could be used.  He didn't order people to use it, so that those who are machmir don't have to; but he has not forbidden it. 
   Reb Chuna and others, on the other hand, took away the option to be machmir - they attempted to overrule an internationally renowned dayan and talmid chochom by declaring it to be breaking shabbos if one used the eruv.  This is going a bit further down the line than just being machmir.
   Ironically this undermining of DCE has landed on its head, as this esteemed gentleman has now been involved in the case bringing down his one-time critics.  Happy purim!!
   But all of this is somewhat by the way.  My real point is that banning the eruv was a "reactionary" ruling by Union rabbis who cannot move away from Jewish life as it was lived in pre-war Europe.  Most of their rulings are in this vein.  DCE was paskening as Head of the LBD, which is rooted in "present-day" Jewish life.  Herein lies the difference between the Union and Anglo-Jewish orthodoxy.  It is all very well to knock the mainstream because its values are not those of the Union, but at the end of the day the values of the latter organisation are not above question by any means.  It is just that its members have opted NOT to question or challenge their rabbonim for fear of being put on a hit-list.  "Machmir" my foot! 
   Jewish life doesn't need to be as stringent as the far right have made it.  We don't need to tell bochurim who are have trouble with emunah that they must control their yetzer or that they are possibly suffering from OCD (as per "Seeking Solutions" in Hamodia a few weeks ago, which I wrote about at the time).  It is okay not to be a malach.  When we want to be maikil on anything we give ourselves a heter, so we can stop being so super-human to appease the rabbonim.  Then we will have fewer sexually malfunctioning individuals needing/offering marriage counselling, or people seeking pleasure where they will or falling into child abuse; we will have homosexuals living their lives, and straight people - for whom homosexuality is proscribed (ie forbidden) - being good straight people; and we will have youth looking happy and relaxed instead of always "over their shoulders" (for fear of not being guilty about something).
   Anyone who thinks this blog has gone too far can retire now back to the Slap & Tickle.  Everyone else - l'chaim! (And here's to Women Not Being Pencilled Out of Pictures in the Yiddishe Press For Heaven's Sake).
  

23 comments:

  1. Drai-kop
    Most towns in Jewish pre-war Europe did have an eruv. It is seven years since the daf yomi touched this subject, maybe now they will read it again. Your internationally renowned dayan as I never fail to point out, has never written anything or paskened correctly. He agrees his kashrut is not mehudar (read possibly traifo) and his triplets not Jewish. I think REH who is an old man was being (mis)led by his son MH about the eruv. MH whom I do know well has been a long time in an SH kollel. With Torah, unless you have the right 'attitude' for want of a better word, however long you learn it wont make you a talmid chochom.

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  2. sad state of affairs7 February 2013 at 14:27

    The issue of the banning of the Eruv by the Halperns was not a halachic issue but purely an exercise in control. It is their modus operandi and an opportunity to create an atmosphere of fear across the NW community by asserting that anyone using the Eruv was mechale Shabbos.

    The wider community is still in a state of confusion over the issue. The fear of their curses and threats is still a factor which equally effects many of the local senior Rabbonim who privately state there's nothing wrong with the Eruv (RSW RYMF RGH RChP RBK) and yet are (were?) too scared to stand up against the mafia.

    It is my fervent hope that the outcome of this suicidal stance the Halperns have taken will finally galvanise the Kehillo to rise up against the intimidation the Halperns have perpetrated for decades.

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  3. @sad state of affairs

    "many of the local senior Rabbonim who privately state there's nothing wrong with the Eruv (RSW..."

    This comment, along with the article itself just highlights the complete lack of knowledge about the Eruv issue.

    The Halperns were NOT the ones anti Eruvim. They were anti the original Eruv which, dress it up as you may, was 100% NOT l'Katchila. At best it was bedieved. I myself spoke to the Israeli Eruv professionals (R' Dovid Eisenstien) who came over to fix the eruv 8 years ago.

    The major force against the Eruv though was by R' Pinchos Roberts, backed by R' Dovid Cohn and R' Shimon Weingarten. Their rationale is a very litvishe one that Eruvim cause a breakdown in Shermiras Shabbos and encourages non shabbosdik activities such as football and enables inter-gender socialising etc. R' Shimon Weingarten is so much anti Eruv that when the Kedassia agreed to make an Eruv in the Brookside-highfield-Sneath area, RSW who lives on Sneath Avenue wouldn't allow it!
    R' Pinchos Roberts has also said that those who use the Eruv are mechalalei Shabbos and doesn't allow them to be the ba'al tefillah or get an Aliyah in his shul. Luckily for most HA carriers he isn't aware that they do so.

    Yes MH became the rabble rouser and the language he used rightfully upset many. But neither MH nor his father REH were the forces against the Eruv. They simply backed RPR.

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  4. sad state of affairs8 February 2013 at 03:48

    Absolutely not true. I have discussed this with RSW and he has no problem with the Eruv, many of his Kehillo carry betzino with his approval.

    Roberts is following the Halpern/Union line, as he does, to the extreme. All of their so called problems with the Eruv could be resolved if they wanted to.

    They derive power over the Kehillo by their stance. That's it.

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  5. Drai-kop
    Soon shabbos so back to the eruv.
    Many people not from European countries who otherwise keep shabbos still carry. Others carry tablets and keys considering the laws of carrying dont apply these necessary articles. Too many have also to go in wheelchairs.
    How it is possible for RPR to 'asser' an eruv and by this contribute to chillul shabbos because of his own private reasons not mentioned anywhere of socializing, and not held anywhere else in the world as a reason not to have an eruv.
    The truth is a litvak is good for lomdus but not as a rov unless he is the Chofets Chaim.

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  6. Golders:

    Your are wrong to say that Rabbi Cohn was a major force against the eiruv. I was in NHAYS on the first Shabbos of the eruv. He said quite categorically in front of the whole kehillah that he would not endorse the eruv but more importantly he did not want anyone who used it to be sanctioned in any way. Clearly, if he believed that one would be mechalel shabbos by relying on the eruv he had a duty to say so, but he did not. He was aware that other NW rabbonim had tried to pressure Rabbi Cooper zt''l to publicly join the anti brigade but he refused. The majority of Rabbi Cohn's kehilla use the eruv.

    Sadly, the anti eruv bloc, which is decreasing in strength week by week was based on the "not thought up here" premise. They were anti it as a matter of principle. The argument against the eruv as being non-shabbosdik is absurd, why have eruvin been allowed since the time of Shlomo Hamelekh if they would lead to such behaviour.

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  7. Rabbi Cohn is strongly anti-eruv. I also heard that speech. He is definitely anti-eruv. He knows his community. He knows what he can do and what he can't do with that community. He knew and knows the controversy concerning the eruv. He knew that it could tear his kehillo apart. He tried his hardest to make peace, some kind of peshora. Did it work? Not sure.
    Who said that the eruv is non-shabbosdik? Some blogger! The problem is and was that particular eruv in north west london.

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  8. Does Rabbi Cohn believe that people using the eruv are mechalel shabbos - yes or no. If yes then he is duty bound to say so. Has he said so - the answer is no. Draw the obvious conclusion.

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  9. Surely the only issue is whether Dayan Ehrentrau and his dayanim on the LBD permitted it. If so, then according to Devorim 17, 8-13 (and associated rashis) no-one is permitted to undermine this ruling. One can be machmir for himself and not use it, but to pronounce that using it is an aveiroh - this is unacceptable. How dare anyone undermine the ruling of the Beth Din???!!!!!
    As for the view that eruvin cause a breakdown in shemiras shabbos etc (as per "Sad State of Affairs" above), they seem to work very well in Israel; and the gemorah provides for them!
    The Litvish school of thought is wrong on a whole host of issues. One of its biggest flaws, incidentally, is that it disregards the views and needs of women. Think how different pesach preparations would be if someone involved in domestic affairs and with an bit of practical common sense had been consulted about any of it. Of course, plenty people will read this and cry "heresy", "a traif blog". (If this is you, stick with the Tribune and have a nice life!)

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  10. sad state of affairs10 February 2013 at 04:46

    I didn't make the comment about 'eruvin cause a breakdown in shemiras shabbos' on the contrary it's an argument that's subjective, has no halachic basis and is clearly a load of claptrap perpetrated by RPR.

    And as mentioned by other posters, why is NWL the only place in the world that this concept applies to?

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    1. Apologies for attributing that comment to you - it was "Golders" who said it.
      The reason why the NWL eruv is quite so controversial is, I suspect, because the area contains all sorts of yidden: some clamouring for progress, others demanding no change from pre-war Europe times and others looking to be a bit frummer than they were before they moved to London (from Dorset and the like). So the possiblities for change/no change all have their origins in this hive of intellectual activity. And the rabbonim feel threatened. Their reactionary leadership (???) is coming under fire and all they do is stand at their posts shouting "ossur!" - while the masses lay seige to all the nonsense.

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  11. @sad state of affairs

    Ask RSW why he opposed the proposed Brookside-Highfield-Sneath Eruv. Kedassia will not allow any of their Rabbonim to make an Eruv on a through road (though they won't protest if one is made) but the Brookside estate has three walls (left side of Highfield Road, river side of Brookside and right side of Sneath avenue and so Kedassia were happy for an eruv to be made there. The only reason it didn't go ahead was RSW's opposition.
    The reason why RSW hasn't spoken like RPR has against those who carry in the eruv is because he knows that a large proportion of his kehilla carry.

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  12. 'Surely the only issue is whether Dayan Ehrentrau and his dayanim on the LBD permitted it. If so, then according to Devorim 17, 8-13 (and associated rashis) no-one is permitted to undermine this ruling'. Sadly, this is tosh. How can the highly respected blog person who wrote this make such a statement, if it is made in seriousness?

    There are other opinions, there are other views! Look at any page of Gemorah. We accept differences of opinion. Where is it written that only Dayan Ehrentrau and his dayanim are the only accepted authorities on this matter??

    Certainly Dayan Ehrentrau knows a lot, but so do others. I can only presume that the blog owner who wrote this is member of the US or of the Dayan's shul.

    The blog person goes yet further! 'the rabbonim feel threatened. Their reactionary leadership (???) is coming under fire and all they do is stand at their posts shouting "ossur!" - while the masses lay seige to all the nonsense.' It would appear that this blog person is indeed an expert on hilchos eruvin, as well as one writes loshon hora against the rabbonim. Dangerous!!

    The blogger Sad State of Affairs writes: 'has no halachic basis and is clearly a load of claptrap perpetrated by RPR. ' This is even worse loshoning!! RPR is a huge talmid chochom of great integrity. To state that he came out with his anti-eruv opinions because of politics or social reasons is to call him a liar. He states very clearly that this has nothing to do with politics but is purely halachic. And, as Dayan Lichtenstein said to me, Rabbi Roberts is a talmid chochom of great integrity.

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    1. You want to know where it is written that we should follow the leaders of our generation and not set up our own botei din whenever we want? I have given you chapter and verse. You have replied, as predicted, by ignoring that piece of torah she'be'al peh.

      The rabbis you claim are talmidei chachomim and of great integrity, are not heads of the LBD at the end of the day. The torah is very clear about this matter and as such, you are advised to seek emess where it is and not where alternative opinions and 'authorities' would have you look for it.

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  13. sad state of affairs10 February 2013 at 07:18

    Do me a favour, I don't think you are actually an emess seeker. No one is denying RPR is a big talmud chochom. So is CH and his father but that doesn't mean that their integrity extends to their political or private matters, as we see.

    The Halperns through the Union and including RPR came out against the eruv for purely political, control and intimidation reasons. RPR has stated clearly the reason why he wouldn't sign any letters or GD against CH, even though he himself had gone to CH twice before Succos telling him to get out of town, is because he is scared of REH and his curses.

    And that's why he is against the eruv. He uses this pathetic excuse of a reason of breakdown in shemiros shabbos to hide behind the fact that there is no halachic reason why the eruv, with any enhancements he wishes to make, can't be considered kosher.

    Answer the question: why is NWL different in this aspect that the rest of the World?

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  14. To the lady blog owner: so RPR is not the head of the LBD! So what? He has no wish to be. Perhaps there are levels even higher than the US??
    'The Torah is very clear about this matter': that the views of Dayan E on hilchos eruvin are correct? That the views of RPR are not correct? I am not so sure.
    I am impressed with your knowledge of the halochos. As you are so sure.
    I wish to return to this matter however. Perhaps we will discuss the questions of Reshus Harobim in London, and karfefos etc

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  15. I wish to continue just a tiny wee bit on this eruv question.
    Though this is not the forum to discuss the intricacies.

    Messrs Sad State of Affairs stated above: '... RPR came out against the eruv for purely political, control and intimidation reasons.' Therefore, in RPR's public shiurum on the NW London eruv, where he stated categorically that it is not politics, but purely halacha, you are stating that RPR is a liar! I am glad that I do indulge in such loshoning. Far too dangerous for me.

    You and others are of course entitled to your points of view, this is not the USSR. The same Sad State of Affairs person goes on to state: 'there is no halachic reason why the eruv, with any enhancements he wishes to make,can't be considered kosher.'

    This does sound like this blogger has invested the requisite years of study and toil, as much as the blog owner herself, in going into these complex halachos. Impressive indeed.

    As to why the NW London eruv should be considered differently from other eruvin in the world, that is also interesting!

    That is a whole huge subject in itself, why London or other huge cities are different from smaller places. The City Wide eruv, not to be summarised on one leg! As to why the standards that certain London Rabbonim give to shemiras Shabbos and the differences from certain places in the USA, that is also interesting. Much has been written on this.

    I suggest that this is not the forum for that debate!

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    1. Emess seeker, it doesn't matter if the views of the LBD dayonim are wrong - THEY are the leaders of the BD and not REH or RPR (or any rabbonim from the Union for that matter). According to Rashi, even if the leaders contend that day is night or black is white, we still have to follow them. "And if they happen to be right how much more so"!!!
      In the light of this, please can you explain where any rov who "doesn't hold with the eruv" (by which I mean 'publically forbids the use of it')derives the authority to make such a pronouncement? Think about it: was the LBD set up before or after the Union was established?? Ask yourself why that body was even established! I am only surprised the dayonim of the LBD haven't proscribed the UOHC as being set up contrary to basic halachic principles.

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  16. Joe Blogs:

    Large cities to not have one beis din. New York, Yerusholayim and even London have multiple kehillos living side-by-side and even mixed together. The main test is the cemetery you buy a plot in, followed by the hechsher you eat, followed by the shul you daven in.

    In any event this argument about LBD somehow having final authroity in GG/Hendon is silly. The LBD has a definite minority of shuls in GG/Hendon in comparison to Union. (Of course the picture is very different once you venture further out.)

    The Union is clearly the biggest "party" among the frum, although this might change in the future. The blogs represent only the dispossessed but most people still consider themselves kedassia people in the black hat shuls, despite all the criticisms. Of course, recent events are likely to produce some form of a split, but it's unlikely the eruv situation will be resolved through this process.

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    1. Fine. And is it kovod lerabbonim for senior rabbis of what is supposed to be the "more frum" religious authority to publically denigrade the rulings of the Beth Din??
      And what about the numerous individuals within the Adass who don't follow their own rabbinic authority but avail themselves of the eruv??!!! Is this even permitted?
      Some of the breakaway minyonim are the result of people wanting to use the eruv when their own rabbonim forbade it. So 'multiple authorities' just means we can pick and choose when to follow our own authority.
      More importantly, the LBD might have a minority of shuls under its jurisdiction in GG/Hendon, but it certainly doesn't have a minority of actual followers individually. Just look at the number of Adass members who use the eruv and draw your own conclusions.
      The days of adass/union arrogance and looking down on the rest of the community are over; they have proved themselves to be no more "frum" on a host of issues and ways of behaving. Just more machmir and more reactionary and afraid of any kind of change. (This is not leadership though, is it).

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    2. They are not denigrating the rulings they are disagreeing with them.

      If it's not a valid eiruv, then carrying is a chillul shabbos from their position. I agree that the language at the time could have been tempered but frankly unless you point out the chillul shabbos aspect people aren't going to listen as the eruv is a massive freedom to all of us. Much of it was in reaction to a glossy booklet that dressed up the eiruv as being better than it was at the time.

      I don't see any evidence of arrogance or looking down at the rest of the community but I do see a strong principle of highest frumkeit which may be too much for many in our circles. I suspect many of those who think they are being looked-down upon suffer a frumkeit inferiority complex.

      Anyway, I don't recall the "the Union" themselves denigrating LBD, some rabbonim may have made their point strongly but "the Union" issued a bland psak, if that.

      No-one will stop you "picking and choosing" from multiple authorities same as you can pick and choose heterim to get the easiest ride along the journey or orthodox life, but the actual criteria of belonging to a kehillah, I spelled out in my post above (burial, eating, praying in that order).

      I accept the point that their handling of abuse appeared to very questionable but "the Union" do not have a uniform position to attack on this, they are very much split down the middle and some of the strongest opponents have been DSF, RSW, RSMF and RADD of the Union.

      Looking at "adass" members is cheating as AYBS is a "broader church" than the Union itself. Notwithstanding that, the majority of black hatters in GG/Hendon clearly don't keep the eruv so it might in time change.

      It's very easy to propose change when you don't have to personally deal with the ramifications of each and every decision for the rest of your life, as rabbonim do.

      I'm signing off as I don't like public blogging about our community and find the tone of your blog disrespectful to all rabbonim (but I may see any reply even if I won't respond to it).

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  17. Emmess seeker - please, let's get into a discussion about reshus horabbim and karfeifos. The NW London eruv is absolutely fine on that front, and it is no different from any other eruv in the world. According to the overwhelming majority of halachic opinions it is mutar lechatchila, Eisner's easily-demolished nonsense notwithstanding. The fight against the eruv is entirely political and most of those involved are the same as those seeking to protect the predator of Bridge Lane, so that clearly shows what they are about.

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  18. sad state of affairs11 February 2013 at 03:05

    Thank you, Shlomo, I've given up arguing with the blinkered and the protectionist.

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